From the ATES systems WG we propose the use of ‘warm’ and ‘cold’ as markers for the warm and cold water that is stored in the groundwater layers.
Existing haystack tags are not suitable for this usage in our opinion, because the ground water in an ATES equip is only slightly warmer or colder than the surrounding natural ground water temperature. For example, a warm source would be around 15 Celsius and a cold source about 8 Celsius when the natural ground water temperature is around 12.
Existing haystack tags are used for other types of water:
“chilled” is for water cooled by a mechanical process,
“hot” is for high degree temperature water,
“heat” is for a heat command point.
Is our proposal compatible with haystack?
Brian FrankTue 3 Dec 2019
Neither cold nor warm are defined tags, so we could coin them for this.
Although, it would leave us quite a profileration of water subtypes
If we go that route, I think we need a clear write-up of when to use domestic vs chilled/hot vs cold/warm
Christopher HowardTue 3 Dec 2019
If your going this route, then shouldn't it be:
cold-water / hot-water
cool-water / warm-water
Jaap BalversSun 12 Jan 2020
Thank you Brian and Christopher, and I agree with both of you.
As I see it now, this looks like a way forward to me:
domestic - tap water used for drinking, washing, cooking, and flushing of toliets
chilled/hot - water that is chilled or heated by building systems, e.g. water from the chilled water plant, a chiller etc. and water from the hot water plant, a boiler etc.
cool/warm - water that is not (directly) mechanically cooled or heated but still a source of cooler/warmer water, e.g. an aquifer warm water well
The general idea is that chilled/hot is used for substances that have been chilled or heated using active components and used directly in the building (or temporarily stored in a boiler/tank). Cool/warm is a more relative term to signify potential energy with usually less of a temperature difference.
Note that I've adapted Christopher's proposal to use cool instead of cold. The domestic, chilled and hot tags are currently in Haystack but may need a little tweaking of the definition to clarify the above.
Does this make sense?
Christopher HowardThu 23 Jan 2020
I think the tagging should be,
cold/hot
chilled/heated
cool/warm
Merriam-Webster's Thesaurus of Antonyms is your friend.
Brian FrankThu 23 Jan 2020
chilled/heated
While that is logical, unfortunately it does not map to the terms of art. If we take an AHU supplied with water for heating/cooling its always called "hot-water" and "chilled-water".
Christopher HowardThu 23 Jan 2020
yeah, your right. The Artist in me and the Logical person in me are always at odds with each other.
Jaap BalversTue 6 Apr 2021
Quick update: please refer to the ATES systems WG update from last week for the tags that we propose to add for cool and warm water, based on the discussion above.
The warm and cool tags are introduced for relatively warm and cool sources of energy. The explicit contract with hot and chilled being that it is not actively heated or cooled by a mechanical process and (usually) has a lower energy potential.
Jaap Balvers Tue 3 Dec 2019
From the ATES systems WG we propose the use of ‘warm’ and ‘cold’ as markers for the warm and cold water that is stored in the groundwater layers.
Existing haystack tags are not suitable for this usage in our opinion, because the ground water in an ATES equip is only slightly warmer or colder than the surrounding natural ground water temperature. For example, a warm source would be around 15 Celsius and a cold source about 8 Celsius when the natural ground water temperature is around 12.
Existing haystack tags are used for other types of water:
Is our proposal compatible with haystack?
Brian Frank Tue 3 Dec 2019
Neither
cold
norwarm
are defined tags, so we could coin them for this.Although, it would leave us quite a profileration of water subtypes
If we go that route, I think we need a clear write-up of when to use domestic vs chilled/hot vs cold/warm
Christopher Howard Tue 3 Dec 2019
If your going this route, then shouldn't it be:
cold-water / hot-water
cool-water / warm-water
Jaap Balvers Sun 12 Jan 2020
Thank you Brian and Christopher, and I agree with both of you.
As I see it now, this looks like a way forward to me:
domestic
- tap water used for drinking, washing, cooking, and flushing of tolietschilled/hot
- water that is chilled or heated by building systems, e.g. water from the chilled water plant, a chiller etc. and water from the hot water plant, a boiler etc.cool/warm
- water that is not (directly) mechanically cooled or heated but still a source of cooler/warmer water, e.g. an aquifer warm water wellThe general idea is that chilled/hot is used for substances that have been chilled or heated using active components and used directly in the building (or temporarily stored in a boiler/tank). Cool/warm is a more relative term to signify potential energy with usually less of a temperature difference.
Note that I've adapted Christopher's proposal to use
cool
instead ofcold
. Thedomestic
,chilled
andhot
tags are currently in Haystack but may need a little tweaking of the definition to clarify the above.Does this make sense?
Christopher Howard Thu 23 Jan 2020
I think the tagging should be,
cold/hot
chilled/heated
cool/warm
Merriam-Webster's Thesaurus of Antonyms is your friend.
Brian Frank Thu 23 Jan 2020
While that is logical, unfortunately it does not map to the terms of art. If we take an AHU supplied with water for heating/cooling its always called "hot-water" and "chilled-water".
Christopher Howard Thu 23 Jan 2020
yeah, your right. The Artist in me and the Logical person in me are always at odds with each other.
Jaap Balvers Tue 6 Apr 2021
Quick update: please refer to the ATES systems WG update from last week for the tags that we propose to add for cool and warm water, based on the discussion above.
Link: https://project-haystack.org/forum/topic/734
warm
andcool
tags are introduced for relatively warm and cool sources of energy. The explicit contract with hot and chilled being that it is not actively heated or cooled by a mechanical process and (usually) has a lower energy potential.