Hello,

I am new to the project, so first let me excuse myself if I am bringing up something that has already been discussed.

We are participating in the development of a performance monitoring tool using SkySpark and when we looked at the structure of the naming convention, we noticed that the points were associated with equipment, which in turn is associated with the site.

In most cases that would be fine, in that a temperature sensor is part of the control system for, say, an air handling unit. However if you want to get the environmental conditions of a zone this would include, in addition to the temperature sensor, the occupancy sensor and the lighting sensor.

In such a case would you consider zone an equipment...?

Your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Meli

Well zone's are not formally defined yet by Haystack, but something we need to do. Here are my initial thoughts...

Zones would be modeled using the zone tag. They would not be equip, but something new that is associated with equip and points using a new zoneRef tag.

For example I think from a logical model perspective there is a clear difference between an HVAC zone and the VAV or VAVs which service that zone.

Taking zones further you get into the logical entities that we use to organize buildings: floors, rooms, wings, etc. So my initial thoughts are that a building is organized as a hierarchy of zones covering these sorts of concepts.

In defining "zone", can I suggest making it an element of the building/site, for the following reasons; 1) for HVAC, a zone may be more than a floor such as the the result of orientation of the building facade, East,South. West or North or some combination of these. In tall buildings there may be more than one vertical zone. 2) A Lighting control zone, in addition a zone may be zoned according to distance from windows as used for daylight harvesting and the client's use of space such as meeting rooms etc.. 3) Security applications may also use "zones" to distinguish perimeter vs interior and for high vs regular security requirements.

In each case "zone" will be associated with an HVAC system, a security system needs to identify motion sensors by zone and lighting control uses motion sensors and light intensity sensor in its application. In the case of the motion sensor, it may be the same hardware serving the three functions. Zone adds a dimension which would otherwise require a considerable extension of sensor name tags.

I believe the term will serve well in the above applications, for operational functions as well as for systems analysis and building data storage and performance analysis.

I agree with Winston. The zone is an abstract for grouping equipment, powerful in concept, and allowing down stream applications to access building elements by function. (i.e. salesFloor1, salesFloor2, staff, etc)

The COBIE hierarchy would be Facility, Floor, Space, Zones. With Zones overlapping Spaces and (potentially) Floors and including Components and Component Types. Systems include Components and Zones.

I believe Raymond has a great proposal i.e. to bring in an existing standard to build on. I am only vaguely familiar with COBie, but understand considerable work is underway in connection with NIST and their work on BIM. I am not sure how zones became "equipment" as opposed to "Space" in a facility. Zones may contain equipment (VAV devices and sensors) or be serviced by a single piece of equipment. In Raymond's string of Facility, Floor, Space, Zones, I would suggest that space is itself some grouping of zones and depending on which entity you are focusing on (HVAC, Lighting, or Security) the zone may change according to the focus. E.G. a lighting zone will not necessarily be equal to an HVAC zone, specifically when implementing Light harvesting. HVAC zones may occur vertically for several floors as well as horizontally on a given floor based on the HVAC system servicing the space in question.

As in Kurt's example, space usage might also be viewed in a zone concept, where sales and engineering may share space on a floor(s). The two occupant groups may have different needs in each of the HVAC, Lighting, or Security requirements.

I would suggest that for purposes of analysis that "zones" would add a useful mechanism to resolve energy usage matters.

I am not at all conversant with COBIE but according to the WBDG web site Spaces can apply to room numbers, space types (atrium, auditorium or parking lots), or user-defined assemblies (i.e. a collection or rooms or corridors). See http://www.wbdg.org/resources/cobie.php

I like the idea of getting more detailed in the topology of the systems in a building and COBIE seems like a good approach. My only concern is that the hierarchy still needs to be flexible enough so there can still be some "customization" with the systems. There will always be buildings that don't fit any predefined templates and whatever hierarchy is used has to accommodate this.

Clarification on Zones and Spaces - from http://www.wbdg.org/resources/cobiefaq.php

Can COBie Spaces contain other Spaces?

No. Spaces cannot contain other spaces. Zones should be used instead as super elements that may contain multiple spaces.

What is are COBie Zones?

A Zone is a group of spaces that together provide a specific function. A common example of a zone is a group of spaces that the public are allowed to access, and a group of spaces that may only be accessed by employees.

No. Spaces cannot contain other spaces. Zones should be used instead as super elements that may contain multiple spaces.

Can someone familiar with COBie explain why there are separate concepts of space and zones?

The simplest and most flexible model seems to just say there are zones which may be organized into arbitrary hierarchies (overlapping or not) however you see fit. Then rooms, floors, VAV zones, interior vs exterior, security zones, wings, etc are just specific types of zones.

I am not sure that zones need to be organized into hierarchies...

Zones are sets of spaces that have common characteristics from the point of view of providing services (heat, cold, light). They (may) have one thermostat, one light sensor, a VAV box a heating element etc... From an AHU point of view spaces do not exist, they are simply zones (with a certain amount of thermal mass)...

For the purpose of modeling the building, I think it would be best to consider zones with particular tags: orientation, perimeter or core;

I can not think of a situation where there is a need to have a hierarchy of zones... Winston, what do you think...?

I'm with Raymond. It's common practice to group similar spaces/rooms into a single large thermal zone for control purposes. For example if you have 4 offices, on the western perimeter with western oriented external walls only, it's common to put only 1 thermostat (typically in the bosses office) to control the VAV's in all 4 office spaces.

I suggest clearly defining a space as a subset of a zone even in situations where there is a one to one relationship b/t the two.

Brian, I think your comment "No. Spaces cannot contain other spaces." is not valid. Even though for the purposes of this project, this might be desirable. Current use of "space" and understanding negates your statement. An "engineering dept" might be the name tag for a space, within that space there will be rooms or meeting areas (board rooms) etc. Moreover as I suggested earlier, depending whether we are discussing security, lighting or HVAC,the same space will have different zoning. Your earlier comment about zone types might be applicable here, where a security zone "type perimeter" would dictate different security applications than an HVAC "type perimeter" zone which is providing heating or cooling. Further to the point a security zone "type perimeter" would not need to differentiate with respect to facility orientation (North, South East or West). However an HVAC "type perimeter" would be concerned about which orientation the zone is servicing. Lighting would most likely have similar concerns.

You said you would like to know why zones and spaces are both used in COBie, my suggestion is that two interest groups have come together to integrate their needs, Real Estate Management and the traditional engineering disciplines. Typically the engineering disciplines are not as involved with space usage as are facility management.

I agree with Meli, that there would be no need for a hierarchy of zones.

Aryn, I suggest that you are referring to HVAC situations only and not considering security and lighting needs. May I also suggest that in today's drive for efficiency and user satisfaction that keeping the boss happy will not earn you any points with the general office employees. That thought should be flushed from all design approaches. A one to one relationship to thermostat and user is the optimal choice. In the bigger picture the cost of a thermostat is cheap compared with down time for employee discomfort.

Spaces and zones may have relationships but one must not be subordinate to the other.

I can not think of a situation where there is a need to have a hierarchy of zones.

If you just consider zones as the general abstraction for any unit of space, then I think you do have hierarchies. A simple example is "floor zones" which contain "room zones". They are just logical groupings of space.

You said you would like to know why zones and spaces are both used in COBie, my suggestion is that two interest groups have come together to integrate their needs

I'm not sure that really answers my question. What is the definitive difference between a "space" and a "zone". To me they are just synonyms for the same concept.

Brian, Our use of the English language is an inexact science with many differences of understanding by various people of various backgrounds. You may be right about them being synonyms, however with my background the word space does not describe anything definitively, other than you are referring to general area. However if you use the word zone I have an expectation of another word describing the type of zone you are referring to.

I would suggest that if you use the term "floor zones", I would not immediately think of rooms as being a subset of floor zone. I would wonder why you called it a zone initially and with the expectation that you would clarify the use of the term zone.

I would consider a room as being a space, which may be part of a larger space. I do not feel the same applies to zones.

Re: Winston's comment: ""No. Spaces cannot contain other spaces." is not valid"" The "spaces cannot contain spaces" was a direct quote from the WDBG web site. In COBIE space and room are used interchangeably but space can also be used to designate a distinct outside space, eg parking lot, or north parking lot.

And yes zones are used to delineate services or functions (HVAC, lighting, public or secured)

In my world, we do not use the term "floor zone". We would say zone 1, zone 2 or zone x. We might say that an entire floor is a single zone.

Engineering disciplines (I work for an MEP firm) are quite involved with space usage since this end use is what determines lighting, HVAC and electric power requirements for any given space.

"What is the definitive difference between a "space" and a "zone"."

Just checking out some on-line dictionaries "space" has 3 dimensions. Zones are often designated or specified for a given purpose. I might ask if someone has extra office space. I'd never ask if they have an additional zone.

Here is an application for a "group of zones". Our open office area has four perimeter zones and four interior zones. Perimeter: east, northEast, northWest and South. Interior: centerEast, Center, centerNW and centerSW. It's L shaped.

The South temperature sensor is hit by sun in the evening. (causes AC in midWinter) This application should find the oddballs in the group. By having a group of zones, we were able to clearly see the effects of the sun on the zone temperature chart. Our control strategy is to substitute the average adjacent space temp when south zone temp is 4 degF greater than average group temp.

There is much to be learned from comparison of an individual thing to groups of things that are in similar modes. Please consider building in some functionality along these lines.

If you need more "use cases". let me know. Thanks

I'm going through some older forum posts and I came across this one. I don't feel like the discussion was well settled.

I also am going to need some physical hierarchies. In my case, buildings contain floors which contain rooms which may contain equipment (e.g. each room has its own digital lighting controller, wholly contained and operating upon that room).

I don't mind using a zone for this, and saying that I have room zones and floor zones ... and then using a siteRef to associated a floor with the site, and a siteRef and zoneRef to associate the room with its building and floor.

But, the only documentation of zone that I can find says that it is of kind Marker and applies to units and points.

Is there agreement on a working solution here, and perhaps an example?

--Chris